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So Gab has decided that their own code that they spent $5M of investor money developing is so unsalvageably bad that they're going to use Mastodon's code instead, with the added bonus of leeching off of our apps (with Gab apps being banned from app stores)

This is an early warning to fellow admins to be vigilant and domain-block them on sight, when/if they appear (unconfirmed whether they intend to federate), and to app devs to consider if blocking Gab's domains from their app is necessary.

that's going to make it fairly hard for them to 'gab' with each other on the online web!

I wanted to try gab, but the app wont work. So. Not for me than

man imagine ur code base sucking so much mastodon is better than it

wonder how feasible it is to have a LICENSE that explicitly forbids it for being used for hate

totally feasible. If it's your code, you can license it on pretty much any terms you like. See e.g. the Chicken Dance Licence. Yes, that's a thing.

I have no clue, this isn't really my wheelhouse. But as a layman, it sounds like a good idea and would be worth looking into if it could stop Gab from using the software.

But license changes are not retroactive, are they. Can't stop them from using code from before the change. Also, since there was no CLA that individual contributors signed, I'd need to get a consensus from about 600 people to re-license Mastodon

if Gab does end up joining the Fediverse, perhaps there could be some message when people create a Mastodon-run server that suggests to defederate with them?

that's true, yes. Relicensing OSS projects with lots of contributors is not straightforward, especially without contributor agreements, and it typically isn't retroactive. There is also the possibility of introducing licence incompatibilities, especially with 3P GPL-licensed code.

Right. To call this a mess would be an understatement. It has been done, perhaps on the largest scale with GFDL --> CC BY-SA on Wikipedia.

But, as you said, they can just use code from beforehand or just, y'know, ignore any license and violate its terms... as I stated before, ethical/morality clauses are legally ambiguous and hard to enforce.

Licenses with ethical/morality clauses are very hard to enforce, due in part to issues with legal definition and interpretation (esp. across jurisdictions). JSON license "do no evil" clause is the most prominent example, but there are others.

Licenses will not help resolve this problem, which must be solved by the mechanisms most Mastodon instances (and maston.social, joinmastodon.org, and Mastodon client apps) are now using... 1/2

Moderation, instance blocks, ToS, and policies (Server Covenant etc.) are effective, and will need to be done anyway.

Enforcement of copyleft license terms (GPL, AGPL, CC BY-SA etc.) is already extremely hard and requires money and legal resources.

License proliferation (e.g. not choosing AGPL for Mastodon) only causes friction for FOSS collaboration. It hurts devs and makes a mess that is difficult to clean up... which will only harm the Fediverse and limit use. 2/2

I agree in the sense that if someone violates AGPLv3 there are multiple established institutions willing to defend it which a custom license does not benefit from

I think I've also mentioned elsewhere in the thread that re-licensing Mastodon is practically very hard due to no CLA and about 600 contributors

Yep. I got to this thread late but we're all in agreement.

I just *really* would hate to see a new license for Mastodon, it has been very successful under AGPL and will continue to be.

Historically, Gab will be a blip on the Mastodon radar... they may not even make the codebase switch. The devs are obviously sloppy AF and now that client apps like Tusky, Sengi etc will block their instance (rickrolling too!), Masto won't solve the primary problem Gab thought it would.

This shows how immature you are.

If their app was banned from Google and my app allows them to continue that means Fedilab can potentially be banned. It is my dev role to respect policy where I publish the app.
@Gargron

@dada mon point de vue et ce que je ferai.
@dada

Vu !
Après, je me dis que ton application permet déjà d'avoir accès à des comptes porno sur des instances ouvertement érotiques : est-ce que ça ne contrevient pas déjà aux règles des différents magasins d'application ?

Pas plus qu’un navigateur web.

- according to Wikipedia gab.ai and gab.com are the domains being used. Any others?

One has to wonder if their investors feel ripped off about this... After all, there are more than 2,000 installations of Mastodon and the costs begin at $5/mo, not $5M

Mastodon and ActivityPub open them up to a bigger audience. So, I imagine they'd be happy. Regardless if other instances ban them or not, this is how FB, Twitter and Youtube are making money, supporting the controversy because it gets more clicks. Not everyone will ban them and waves of drama will ensue.

honestly my favourite is how their people clearly _do not understand anything on a technical level_ about mastodon (exhibit A: "we won't offer federation but of course apps that support it would" https://twitter.com/getongab/status/1133945078534299650 , exhibit B: the guy, in their blog post, clearly not understanding that the activitypub c2s protocol is not mastodons API)

this is about the level of technical competency I'd expect of them but still, lol

Wait, Gab scammed nazis out of $5M by giving them software that didn't work? I'm mildly impressed. Nextchan only managed to steal $12k from them doing that.

wait... someone on the right grifted someone out of their money? This is unprecedent

From your post, I don't quite understand what is the reason to "domain-block them on sight". They are somehow modifying the Mastodon code so that it could cause trouble to other instances?

+1 here. why ban somebody on sight? never heared of them before this come up here?

Gab is a white supremacist social network. The guy who shot up a mosque was from there. Doesn't take a lot of searching to find what that place is about.

I don't want to limit my instance users' access to any other networks. Why would I do that unless they threaten my instance somehow? If my instance users are racists / white supremacists / furries, I don't care unless I have problems with them or unless they do something illegal. P.S: You can probably also call me white supremacist because I also have a Gab account (but I don't use it too much so I didn't have a chance to discover that they are all white supremacists yet).

OK now I understand your point. I was only confused because I thought at first that your original post was about Mastodon software, while - in fact - it was about your political / socilogical views (which are of course perfectly valid but not necessarily universal).

It looks like the first app developer built in censorship inside an client app. I am no IOS user nor have I heared of Gab before this come up by Gargon, but i don`t think this is the way to go. Furthermore I think in general censorship by app developers is a bad thing.

"""New post in Release notes from Amaroq: v1.1.16: Hardcode ban of gab.anything"""

Well, now some Gab fan just forks "Amaroq Uncensored" and everyone will be happy except that it will be more work for everyone…
@Gargron

Except that Gab's apps were banned from app stores so that would bring them to square one 😂

Wow, that would actually mean that all Mastodon clients that won't block Gab would be banned from the app store! Surely, interesting times are ahead! 🙂
@kmj

the replies you're getting from nazi apologists will be great additions to my blocklist.

gab will still be blocked from app stores, right? regardless of the code they use, the service will still host hate speech and thus be quickly banned for the same reasons as the prior app if they use Gab branding in any way

would be fun if when trying to login into gab we opened some "why fascism is bad" page instead

This is also an early warning of the kind of threats the fediverse is facing.

Oh what the effing eff.

Is this for the domain 'gab.com"?

Is this for the domain 'gab.com'?

I disagree, in principle, with blocking on sight, but since it's Gab, I'll have to agree :P

Why should I? If no bad content appears on my mastodon I won't.

What the heck is Gab? (serious question) Never heard of it.

It was actually about $3,000,000 - $2,200,000 in investor crowdfunding and about another $1,000,000 in monthly subscriptions (aka. donations).

AND yes, investors will be very upset. Important to keep the people informed of the scam. The words to brand them with. #grifter #parasite Those 2 words really get under torba's and gab's skin.

Brendan Eich, of Brave browser and Java fame, came up with the term parasite.

Also, from gab CTO.
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Hahahaha, so they're about to waste another year porting Mastodon to Node.js instead of choosing Misskey which is already written in Node.js, never mind the fact that Node.js is neither good for performance nor for the development experience.

yeah, I don't know why they didn't chose miskey either, was thinking the same the whole time but I sure wasn't about to tell them.

Misskey dodged a bullet

Here is gab's plan from my discussions with their CTO.
1) Start with your code.
2) Hard fork, add features like groups and rework in Node.
3) Probably come up with new protocol and leave AP.
4) Connect to other Gab "services" , like dissenter, in some kind of google like abomination.
5) Code will be open source BUT not all, so they can still control and claim 'open source' but part is black box - like Dissenter.

gab will never do anything 100% open - not the way they think.
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wait wasnt there some other open protocol social network that got a thing for node.js and ran itself into the ground trying to convert it over to entirely node.js? god its at the tip of my tongue~ :thinkhappy:

I have never heard of "Gab" before. Where can I learn more about the problem at hand?

From what I have been observing it seems that the decrease in Gab's user base has accelerated since the launch of the purism.one instance, which is probably why Masto got their attention (if you can't beat them join them I guess?)

They seem to be trying to imitate certain aspects of purism.one as a response to this churn.

Not sure a preemptive domain block is needed for everyone...if no local user interacts it seems they naturally don't federate with you.

Apparently we beleive in free speech as long as we like what is said. Why on earth would Gab want to federate? So you can censor them?

Really!? First of all, why have all admins block all Gab users just for being Gab? Plus, someone blocking Gab from an app is absolute censorship for little reason than to discourage Gab usage. Why?

who would have thought a code base written by a diverse set of developers all over the world is better than one written by a bunch of entitled fascists.

:thinkhappy:

twitter, mastodon, tumblr, gab... All four nations lived in harmony, until the gab nation attacked.

based on https://gab.com/gab/posts/VnZRendFcDM1alBhNm9QeWV4d0xidz09 they want to add in things like editing and groups, yet they still expect to rely on existing Mastodon clients? I wonder how they expect existing third party apps to magically support Gab-only features 😏

They are also planning on adding video uploading, so why are they forking #Mastodon rather than #PeerTube?

And why exactly are you against freedom of speech?

I dont see anything wrong with them making a Mastadon Instance, but if other instance admins want to block their domains, it's all their choice.. so not a problem for me. I don't care about gab so...

I really don’t like the encouragement of “block gab, block gab!”. I prefer just letting instance admins make their choice of blocking gab and having those admins see if gab is bad or not.

Don’t think implementation quality is the issue here. What they built was resilient enough to having infrastructure pulled out from underneath on multiple occasions. It just makes sense to build on open, mature protocols, libraries and applications. Also, Gab doesn’t need to federate freely. They will, but Covenant instances aren’t their target.

with this potentially happening, it would be good to see users/mods be able to force reciprocal defederation instead of the current system where both instances need to defederate.

Remember that Gab is a sinking ship and they're basically grabbing onto Mastodon like a parasite in a desperate attempt to get attention from the "drama" of doing so.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/gab-is-in-full-meltdown-and-founder-andrew-torba-blames-the-deep-state

Torba has no self-awareness to see how pathetic it looks that his master race ass is incompetent at making a working website so he has to resort to using software made by a Jew instead.

App devs will block their domains, server admins will block their domains, and that'll be the end of that.

oh hell yeah deep state is responsible for gab's meltdown? i'm proud of myself now

I mean, odds are fairly high they'll never get this project off the ground either.

Good. Let them rot.

deep state finally makes it big

Just beautiful.

Almost kid. Started strong but then went full on SJW weirdo. Let me fix it:

Remember that Gab is a sinking ship and they're basically grabbing onto Mastodon like a parasite in a desperate attempt to get attention from the "drama" as a fund raising scam.

We build free and open source software to make the world a more fair place for everyone and push back against the technocrats. Torba is a con artist and scammer who has some how blown $3MM without anything to show for it. #grifter

Gab blocked me on Twitter months ago for pointing out that federation is the obvious solution and they don't/won't do that. Free speech my ass. So yeah, while this seems desperate, I beg developers/admins not to block them.

this owns lmao

You've also forgot to mention that 99% of other Fediverse users are going to HATE THEM
They are be flamed allll day long, it'll be a shit time.

Well, if you can't trust Daily Beast and SPLC then who can you trust, you know?

they'll always have "conservative" talk radio.

Maybe they will all just sign up with LibreOne from Purism...

They are just making it easier to deplatform them.

It's just fine.

The amount of shade in this post is just right. 👌

turns out that by "deep state" he means the SEC, not, like, Eve

holy shit go the fuck off eugen wow

smug money-chan approves
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I'm all for free speech and I'm a conservative myself, but the amount of shit I've seen on Gab was crazy. Pure anti-Semitic and hate community.

the fuck you talking about? 😂
Image/photo
Image/photo

sinking ship.
Image/photo

The thing about gab joining the fediverse is that their domains are domains where only Nazis will go, it's the reason why Gab is failing, because any branbd that's associated with toxic discriminatory bollocks is a brand nobody wants to associate with.

Even if not blocked, a Tooter with a gab.ai domain has already outed themselves.

Oh, great! Fight #fascism by isolating the fascists ! . . .
Eh... Hmmm... When did that actually worked?
#communism #gab #fedilab #tusky #anarchy #brainstorming

I'll definitely be encouraging @Tusky to disallow their domains in-app. Yikes. Thanks for the heads up.

I'm low key freaking out.

A screen cap of your post here is currently be circulated on right-wing/free speech sites now. The people you're worried about are already using Mastodon.

My advice would be to ignore the groups you dislike as long as they're not causing problems for the network(s). Because you're picking a fight that will set Mastodon on fire.

Gab's paid developers will be doing bug fixes & adding new features/apps to Mastodon & Activity Pub. That's not a bad thing to happen.

my suggestion re: media inquiries is to constantly point out that mastodon is federated like email. it's what made the internet so great in the first place. anybody can run a server and do whatever they want with it, but anybody else can also decide if they wish to connect with you. Gab is welcome to use the software and join the party, but other servers may be tentative to connect with them based on user behavior. that's freedom, and responsibility.

> Eugen Rochko believes that small, close communities would police toxic behavior more effectively than a large company's small safety team.[citation needed]

Nothing inconsistent here, since you're just saying you disagree with another community's guidelines. But

>and to app devs to consider if blocking Gab's domains from their app is necessary.

That starts to sound like deplatforming on a greater scale.

Why is GAB racist/white supremacist? I support GAB, Minds, and Mastodon because I think all of these are projects worth supporting to get us away from Twitter, Facebook, and the rest. I don't see how an entire social-platform can be "racist/alt-right".
Please do not hate me for disagreeing on this, I'm just trying to be honest and get a better understanding.

Congratulations on your "Deep State" membership approval. You are now one of us.

why domain block Gab? I am not following this. I am on Gab and yes, there is lots of trash on there as well, mostly good people though.

I think it's more insidious than that. I think it's less about the code than it is the ecosystem. I think they plan to falsely claim all Mastodon users as Gab users on a prospectus and to try to "convert" fediverse users to Gab viewpoints. All Gab has ever been is a money and user numbers scam.

Free speech is meaningless unless you protect the freedoms of marginalized groups from hate speech. If you care about freedom, you should care about the safety of the targets of bigots.

Freedom doesn't mean one person can do whatever they want, it means freedom to as much people as possible -- which might require some actions to be forbidden and fought against sometimes.

And who gets to decide what is hate speech? Power corrupts and hate speech turn into an excuse to get rid of and discredit the opposition. Easily done with a broad definition and naive population. Interesting to see opinions on a platform such as mastodon. Now IT monopoly can just scream hate speak to get rid of the competition.

Freedom of speech isn't if you restrict it.

I don't see what you are afraid of honestly. If you really believe in your opinions why are you so scared of debate with someone who doesn't share them?

It's exactly that form of reasoning that has put Assange in the spot he is right now, only then the excuse was national security and yours is protecting marginalized groups.

Like puppets giving away their freedom just because the boogeyman of the day.

Because "I want to kill you" is not a point of debate. Even if white superiority can be refuted with facts people who believe in it are not interested in changing their minds. They use debate as advertising for their movement. Which historically has resulted in internment camps and the Holocaust and contemporarily results in mosque shootings, church burnings, and driving cars into people.

That's really dumb

LB, don't mind me, just reading old notifs on Tusky